Jennie 0:05

Welcome to Traveling Companions Stories of Becoming. This is a podcast about the in-between. Those threshold moments when we can no longer go back to who we were, and who we're becoming isn't yet clear. If you've ever stood in that space or find yourself there now, you're not alone. I'm your host, Jenny Snyder. Today I am joined by Stephanie Goedell. And Stephanie and I go back a few years. We have traveled together through the Georgetown coaching program and have remained friends ever since. And I am just really excited to have this conversation with Stephanie today. So, Steph, I just want to welcome you to the Traveling Companions Podcast.

Stephanie 0:55

Thank you so much. And I'm I'm struck by the name Traveling Companions, and just for a moment reflecting on how we met, who we were when we met, and where we are now. And this is just such an apt conversation.

Jennie 1:12

Yeah. So, Stephanie, I'll just let you introduce yourself in whatever way you'd like.

Stephanie 1:21

Oh, that's a big question. Who are you? Who am I? I know I wrestle with that question every day. Uh so I think I'll start with my life purpose. I really see my life purpose as recognizing and developing potential in other people. And how that has manifested itself over time has evolved. Uh I started with uh a career in higher education working in student affairs. So really trying to help college students grow into their own, build self-efficacy, leadership development, become whole functioning people as they graduate college and go into the working world. That's evolved over time into working with female entrepreneurs running high-growth companies and trying to get them access to all of the things that would help them continue to grow and succeed in their businesses. And has eventually evolved into officially the HR space, but the particular piece of HR is talent development. And I deeply believe that uh people cause a lot of suffering at work. And that suffering happens when people are ill-equipped to lead other people, which is one of the most complicated things that somebody can do in their lifetime.

Jennie 2:52

Right.

Stephanie 2:53

Probably other than caring for elderly parents or raising kids. It is one of the most stressful things that somebody can do is lead other people. And so we see this over and over where people get promoted into roles because they were good at something, right? Good product managers, good at operations. And so now they take the next step, but nobody gives them any additional skills. And because it's so complicated to lead people, they're suffering. They don't know what to do, or they're not doing it effectively, and they're not getting new skills to be more effective. So they're suffering, they're causing their people to suffer, and we spend way too much time at work to suffer. And so I go back to what I was saying. You know, I really believe that um everyone's got potential. We have it in different ways. I don't even know if we have it in different amounts. I don't think you can measure it. I think it's all about circumstances and opportunity and support. And if we were able to really understand people's potential and how to tap it, that suffering across the board would decrease. So I think that's kind of the conclusion I've come to about my purpose in this world.

Jennie 4:11

Yeah, to relieve suffering or to make better the condition that people find themselves in when they're catapulted into leadership.

Stephanie 4:20

Yeah, yeah. And what's so funny is um, you know, I think I started down this path when I was in college. So a little bit about my background. Um, I grew up in, I'm from the South. I grew up in South Florida, grew up in a trailer park. There wasn't a lot of opportunity around me. Single mom. She didn't go to college. My father was military. He went to college later in life. Um, and so we didn't have a lot. And we actually have very little. So I think there's a difference between not having a lot and also having very little. We had very little. And uh my mom said the way out of this is through education. So my brother and I figured out how to get to college, right? Figured out how to get there, figured out how to pay for it. So I went to a school in the mountains of North Carolina, fell in love with it. It was so beautiful. It was not one of the top 10 public institutions in the US, right? It was what was right for me at the time. And what it allowed me to do was excel in the classroom while learning about who I am and what my strengths were and building that self-efficacy. And I gotta tell you, I had some massive failure. So, I mean, being president of a sorority without having deep leadership skills is that's a doozy, right? Being an RA. Wow. And, you know, um, I came out of that a much stronger person. I had a great college experience, you know, deep love for Western Carolina and everything I had there, and uh ended up going to the University of Tennessee and getting a master's degree. So I'm the only person in that side of my family with a master's degree. And when I think about this moment, and I can fast forward, I was in Costa Rica a couple of years ago on a retreat with a group of women, and we're all building out our coaching businesses. And I was kind of getting to the why. Why do I do what I do? How do I explain it? And this phrase came up about I want to eliminate suffering. And I was kind of like, where is that coming from? And I'm Buddhist. And it was this moment where I realized I've been Buddhist since 2002. My early Buddhist influences were around 2000. So we're talking 25 plus years that I've been exploring this Buddhist mindset and faith. And it's all about suffering. And the commonality is we all have suffering. And if we can understand the sources of suffering, we can eliminate it. And that is that is the human condition, this piece on suffering. And so it was this moment where I was like, oh my gosh, this is the way I live my Buddhist values. There's something called right path. What is the right path of your profession? What are you doing that like keeps you on this Buddhist path? And when I go all the way back to my college experience and I think about some of the things that happened when I was a sorority president, I know this may sound, I don't know, juvenile to some people, but when you think about your first leadership experiences and some of the traumatic moments you have in leading other people, I was at such a loss back then. And it didn't feel good, right? It felt really bad. And I was suffering. And when I kind of look over time at the moments where maybe I didn't make the best choice as a leader, or I didn't know what to do as a leader, I suffered. And a lot of it was because I had potential that I didn't know how to develop or that somebody else didn't know how to develop in me. So it feels like all of this is connected around the piece about developing potential in others and easing the suffering. Yeah.

Jennie 8:10

Yeah.

Stephanie 8:11

Any of that makes sense.

Jennie 8:12

Yeah. So you're helping people to realize their potential so that we eliminate or can reduce the suffering in the world? Very powerful. Stephanie, we begin each of these conversations with a question, and I'll share the question with you, and you can take that in whatever direction you'd like. So, Stephanie, what was a moment in your life when you could no longer go back to who you were, and who you were becoming wasn't yet clear.

Stephanie 8:50

That question makes me wonder if life is a series of these arcs where that happens over and over again. Yeah, definitely. And either you're at the start of it, you're in the middle of it, or you've moved beyond it. And it's just a cycle over and over. Because I could go back to that time between um leaving college and not quite understanding how to insert myself into the professional world and deciding to go back to graduate school and actually choosing a career in higher education and student affairs. I could think about other times when I've pivoted. And most of my pivots, I feel like, and working through this question were largely professional with the overlay of kind of personal. Um, but stepping out of higher education, I stepped into the corporate world and I spent a year on an HR teen with a construction management company. And it just was not the right fit. And I stepped out of it very quickly, and I didn't know what was next. Um, I got laid off from my last job in HR in talent development uh about two and a half years ago now. And it was that moment of, okay, what's next? I was coming out of the coaching program and trying to figure out where do I go from here? There are a couple of different paths. And, you know, I chose one, coaching, consulting, and I've started following that. And I would say almost every day I wake up and say, is this the right path? And what is it that I enjoyed so much about being on a team that I'm missing right now? And so I'm very much in that place of do I go back? And I'm not somebody who says go back a lot because I do firmly believe that you can't go back. And I've lived in some amazing places in the world, and I don't think I can ever go back because I have this romanticized notion of what that was. And it's not gonna be that next time around. And so when I catch myself saying, I wonder if I could go back to that or go back to doing this, I catch myself because there is no going back, it's only going forward. So, what I think the better question is what were the elements of what worked, what I enjoyed, what helped me thrive in those moments that I'm missing right now? And how do I build that into what's next?

Jennie 11:38

Yeah.

Stephanie 11:39

So it was a long way of saying I'm in it right now, Jennie. I don't know what's unfolding.

Jennie 11:44

Yeah. And I appreciate you naming that, right? Even the frame of like to go back to something because we are always evolving. And so who are we in this moment? I'm struck by what you said at the beginning of the conversation about holding this intention around helping people to realize their potential and your easing suffering.

Stephanie 12:06

And what's interesting about that too is that clearly I don't have the answer. Yeah. Because I'm still trying to develop my potential and figure out how I ease my own suffering. So it's not like I have the answer, which is also part of the beauty we know this of coaching, is that we don't come with the answers.

Jennie 12:26

Right.

Stephanie 12:26

Right? We come with the questions. And so actually, can I share with you?

Jennie 12:32

Yeah.

Stephanie 12:33

Um, so I think that um, so for me, I'm a planner. I like having things buttoned up. I always say when I'm in a car and somebody's giving me directions, give me the next two steps. Right. I don't want to surprise at the last minute that I have to make a left turn across three lanes of traffic. So give me the next two steps so I can get it in my head what's happening. So I'm definitely a planner. So I'm not somebody who sits really well with the questions and in this place of um, here's where I am, and I haven't yet become. Right. I haven't gotten to the conclusion. I'm not great at sitting in this space. And so I often have to remind myself about the journey, is the most important part sometimes of it, not the destination. And so there's this quote by Rilke that I absolutely love. I keep it on my refrigerator, and every once in a while I just have to go back to it. And it says, I want to beg you as much as I can, dear sir, to be patient towards all that is unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves, like locked rooms and like books that are written in a very foreign tongue. Do not now seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distance a day into the answer.

Jennie 14:14

Wow.

Stephanie 14:16

I love that. It's just not easy.

Jennie 14:20

So as you sit in this moment, sit in your questions, what is that like for you?

Stephanie 14:26

Yeah, it feels a little bit like a split personality, right? Like who am I on this day? And so where I am is I'm mid-50s. I do think a lot of the best years are ahead of me. And I'm trying to imagine what that looks like. Uh, I find myself slowing down a lot more. I'm a gardener. I grow dahlias. I get so excited when the sun actually comes out in New England and we can start growing things. And I dream of living in Vermont, having a much bigger dahlia farm and maybe even some goats and chickens. And I'm not sure if this is a phase that everyone kind of goes through as they get older. I will say one thing, I'm not going to be a bird watcher. It's just not my thing. That's a little bit way too much slowing down for me. Okay. I like fast-paced movement. Um, I live in the Boston area, which is, by all intents and purposes, a fast-paced city. We're not LA or New York, but we're, you know, things move fast, right? In New England. Vermont is the opposite of that. As I said, I went to school in the mountains of North Carolina, um, which is very much like Vermont, very lush, very green, much slower, much less densely populated, much less going on, you could say. I had never lived in the city. I came to Boston for six months, and now I've been here 20 years. So, what I found out about myself when I moved to Boston is that I like action. I like activity. I'm an extrovert. I knew this about myself. But what I can find in the city is equally as stimulating as what I can find out in hundreds of acres in the country. I like to hike, I like to bike, I like to be out in nature, I like to garden. It's a different type of activity. But I would wither and die in the suburbs because it doesn't speak to me, right? It's the city where it's the country for me. Um, and so that's a part of what I think tears me right now is there's so much opportunity in Boston. There's so many great people, so many interesting things to do and see and learn, of course, learn in New England with all these incredible universities and minds here. Yep, part of me just wants to take a master gardener course and hang out in Vermont, you know? And so um, I think if I if I had all the money in the world and didn't have to worry about an income and a future and things like that, I would probably have a place in both places and maybe find balanced that way and invite the people I love from the city to come out to the country. Uh, but right now it feels like I've got to make a choice. And I'm just kind of sitting in this middle place of I've set my life up so that I could work from Vermont if I wanted to. Do I have a romanticized notion though of what that's like? I don't know.

Jennie 17:34

Yeah.

Stephanie 17:34

Yeah. So I'm kind of sitting in this place of um one day I'm in my uh dahlia overalls heading to the garden, and the next day I'm in like, you know, a nice dress heading into the city.

Jennie 17:48

So being in this middle place, what questions are you sitting with in this moment?

Stephanie 17:56

Yeah. In this moment, I feel like I have to quiet the noise and really get into the core of what is my soul speaking to me? What is it that truly brings me joy? What is it that I'm doing that I'm just doing because it's what I've always done? Or even what's expected of me by other people. Um at the core, I think the big question is who am I? It's tough to wake up every day and ask that question. Because it's not just who am I today, what am I gonna do and how am I gonna impact people? It's who am I at my core, and not am I living congruently with that?

Jennie 18:52

And how do you know if you're uh living congruently with that core of who you are?

Stephanie 19:05

The first step is doing work on values, just really honing in on what are your top values? And I did a lot of that work uh last year. It was interesting. I did it in um a community that I'm a part of, people in transition, often inspired by serious health-related issues that cause them to completely reassess where they're heading in life, which is also something that happened to me. So that's a really interesting community. And so when you're in this place of assessing where you are and where you want to go and the choices that you've made that are impacting your life in a very physical way negatively. So I did a lot of values work in that group. And then also with my coach and mentor, Kenny, who you know, we also did some values clarification work. And what was nice was the consistency that came out of that. I also did it in uh another group, a community that I'm a part of, the coaching sisterhood, which is female coaches. So it was really interesting because three different communities within a span of six months, all doing this work around values. So it felt like this question was really being called forth for me. So, first step, get clear on values. And then the second step, I think, is to keep those front and center with journaling, some type of reflective practice to say, am I living my values right now? And you've got to choose. Every value's great, right?

Jennie 20:32

Yeah.

Stephanie 20:33

But truly, what's the top one? Yeah, get it down to 10, get 10 down to five, get five down to three, and get three down to one.

Jennie 20:42

And so, what are those anchors for you in terms of what matters to you?

Stephanie 20:48

Helping other people. That's what it comes down to, really, for me. And so some of the words that were coming up when I was doing my values work were, you know, loving-kindness, which is of course a Buddhist concept. Um, also just community, an internet interconnected web of existence, which also comes out of uh the Unitarian Universalist faith. Um, so all of it really is around those community connections with other people. Some of the others that appeared in my top three were around curiosity and creativity. So I've always been somebody who likes to create and make things. And so when I don't have space for that, or when I say space, I'm talking physical space, but also taking a class of some sort, having projects that I'm working on. I make books, I make handmade journals. So that's some of the art that I do. I've done shibori dyeing and other fabric arts before. Living in the city, I don't have a lot of space for this. I share 850 square foot space with my partner and two cats. So it's hard to do that. Um, but looking, I think every once in a while we probably have to do like a time audit of our schedule and just really compare it and say, how am I spending my time? Am I spending my time doing the things that bring me joy, but also reinforce my top values that I say when I get to the end of my life, if I have lived these values, how am I gonna feel about the impact that I've made? Can't be passive, it can't be a passive process.

Jennie 22:32

Yeah. So from the vantage point of today, how would you want to answer that question?

Stephanie 22:42

A lot of it is in the small moments. One day I was at the grocery store right down the street from me, and I was in the, you know, five items or last line checking out, and there was a woman in front of me with a Diet Coke. And she's looking in her purse and she's starting to escalate because she can't find her wallet. And in less than a minute, this woman is crying her eyes out in the checkout line. And she's saying something about losing her job and not being able to get another one, and she's having a moment. And the suffering, right? I'm feeling the suffering, I'm witnessing the suffering. And it wasn't like I could have a conversation with her in the moment because she was really she was having a moment. We've all had these moments where it's like, don't talk to me, I can't make sense. Just like I need some space right now. And I mean, I'm thinking all this woman wants is her diet coke. So I just took it from her hand and I said, Let me get that for you. So I think we all have Diet Coke moments throughout the day, or a moment where we're witnessing somebody's suffering and we can do one small thing to help ease their pain. And so I think the question is, do you take that opportunity when you see it to do the kind thing or to try to be helpful? And so I want to look back and I want to see those moments. And my understanding of the afterlife is that those moments do get replayed for you from people I've talked to about moving on to the afterlife who've had those experiences. I also think, though, there's this intentionality about making sure that you are giving back and that you are helping somebody else. So whether that's sitting on a board and helping raise money for Chica Project, which is an organization that is near and dear to my heart. I helped them establish their first board. I sat on it, I got them their biggest grant that they had. They're off and flourishing now. So my contribution was, you know, just like a small thing, but it was a start. And it was what they needed at the time, and it made me feel really good. So that was a three or four year commitment. So I'm always looking for what's my next three to four year commitment. And I kind of never have it in my mind that it's gonna be three or four years, but I also know myself really well and I call it the three-year creative curve. So I almost have never done anything for more than three years in my life. Almost never lived in a place more than three years, dated anybody more than three years, had a job more than three years. If it's been at the same company, it's been a promotion. But there's this getting in and rolling up my sleeves and understanding the problem and getting creative about solving it. Um, so it's a learning, it's a creativity, it's a contribution, and then it's a refinement, and then it's a handoff. That's kind of the three-year cycle for me. And I noticed this probably about a decade ago. I kind of looked back and I was just like, wow, it's just three years, three years, three years. Okay. I am living in my house for 10 years, and I'm itchy, super itchy to get to Vermont. Um, so it's not intentional that I've done these kind of my community service, my volunteerism for these three, three to four year stints. But I think the point there is, yes, the everyday moments really truly matter. And those longer-term commitments to really see something grow and change also are really important.

Jennie 26:30

So in that cycle, where would you say you are now?

Stephanie 26:37

Yeah, to overlay the very first question that we started with. Yeah, that's a good question. I might have to reassess my three-year cycle because I am in a 12-year relationship, which is my longest relationship ever. I am in uh, this will be 11 years come August that I've been living in the same place. Job-wise, definitely have shifted every three years during that time. Um so maybe I'm beginning to appreciate stability as a part of this curve. I'm not sure where it falls on the curve, but I think there is an appreciation for stability. I've always been somebody who's watch out world, here I come, right? Like I can get rid of my possessions and live out of a backpack or live out of a van. And so now maybe there's a little bit more of an appreciation for stability, but also I wrestle with the anchor of it. I don't love anchors. Uh-huh. So stuff is anchors, staying in one place too long is an anchor. And it feels like it stifles creativity for me. And so the balance between stability and creativity, I think maybe the point of tension is where I am.

Jennie 27:57

Yeah, between those two. And I'm really struck by like stability can be both an enabler or a condition that makes things possible. And you were saying just a moment ago that it can stifle creativity if we're just kind of stuck. And so it sounds like you're in the middle of that tension between those two. I'm just curious how you see it.

Stephanie 28:20

Yeah, well, well, going back to your first question, I feel like I've kind of worked my way into the answer, a la Rilka. Is um so as I think about transitioning out of a job that I loved with people that I really loved, um, you know, unfortunate circumstances with sales with the company, um, and think about coaching and consulting full-time. There is this tension between stability and creativity, or stability and freedom. And so perhaps that uh when I was talking about kind of the split personality thing, it feels very much like the creativity, stability tension. You know, to be Vermont is creativity, it's freedom. It is a place big enough to have big, messy arc spaces and a huge garden and to roam around in my overalls. Whereas the Boston me is connected to the stability, right? There's a stability with my partner here, his job, the stability that if I wanted to step back into the step back, there it is, see, yeah, into the working world, right? Full-time job, benefits, all those things that create stability. I crave that as well. Yeah, that's here in Boston. I'm not gonna get that as easily in a place like Vermont, which is very low capita, much lower um salaries, et cetera, et cetera. So it is this really interesting place of how much freedom do I need to create, and how much stability do I need to feel free enough to create?

Jennie 30:08

Yeah. And how to get the benefits of both.

Stephanie 30:13

Yes. Yeah, which gets into polarity work, which maybe I need to sit down and do a little mapping there. I know, in some ways, it's a conversation with some really good questions that you're asking that are making me think as I I'm speaking. Um yeah, what is what is the best of both worlds and how do I create that is a really good question.

Jennie 30:38

Yeah.

Stephanie 30:39

Because, you know, as I reflect on moments in my life where I've had not a lot of stability, I was always on the move trying to make things happen or bouncing around. And there was energy in that. Um maybe creativity. Uh and at this point in my life, I feel like I have more stability, but there's something in that stability that is like a I don't know, a foundation for this creative part of me that is emerging, you know. So I don't know. I love this tension here. Yeah. As you're saying that, I don't know, this image that's coming to me is this just really lovely fountain that has this beautiful stone wall around it. And yet it creates this setting for the water to be coming up and like bursting up and like doing what water does, which is not really being controllable, but like in a controlled setting. So it's kind of the best of both worlds. I don't know. It's interesting. I'm definitely gonna have to think about this a little more.

Jennie 31:48

You know, as you stand in this moment, in this tension, trying to be in alignment with what matters to you. What are some internal signals that tell you, yeah, I'm moving in a direction that feels aligned with my values?

Stephanie 32:10

Well, that's a big question. So it's interesting because we were just talking about what I'll say is being free-spirited, a bit free-spirited, which I think if you asked my mom, it kind of came out free-spirited, or maybe just spirited. So definitely a free spirit. Have always been extremely independent, have a huge amount of figure it out. Um and some of it is around when I get in a routine where I'm kind of doing all the things, I know things are clicking. So for me, that's making sure I go to bed early, making sure I get eight hours of sleep, making sure I get up early, and that I do a tough workout, and that I eat right, and that I spend enough time outside and that I walk and that I'm connecting with people throughout my day, not just hunkering down in my comfortable office with all of my things. I definitely shop less. Isn't that so interesting?

Jennie 33:14

What do you make of that?

Stephanie 33:16

Well, I mean, the capitalist machine tells us that we feel better about ourselves, we fear value when we get that hit of buying something, right? And it doesn't last long, so we buy more. It's like an epidemic in our country. But when my bank account is staying steady and not going up and down, that's an indicator that I'm paying attention to the things that matter. So your question kind of, it feels like it's it elicited this almost superficial response from me. It's these um indicators, though, that I'm taking care of myself. I'm writing in my journal. I'm reading my daily pivot, Brianna West. I love her book called The Pivot Year, where it's just like a little hit in the morning that makes you reflect. Um, it is when I'm putting on my makeup in the morning, which is takes all of five minutes. Do I do an affirmation practice? So it's like these little tiny habits that when I'm in that place, I'm paying attention and I'm committed to the habits, and I'm not slipping into staying up too late on my tablet, playing a game and stimulating my mind in all the wrong ways before I go to bed. It's how many handwritten letters have I written to a friend this month? It's how am I showing up in the ways that are uniquely me consistently? But maybe that was a long way to get to the answer to your question is am I being consistent?

Jennie 34:56

When you're in that space of consistency, what do you notice?

Stephanie 35:02

Yeah. It's uh it's a phenomenon that a psychologist from the University of Chicago, Chick Mensihay, calls flow. Uh yes. The flow state. When you forget to go to the bathroom, when you forget to eat, when time feels like it's become suddenly expansive, when creativity and innovation are flowing freely, ideas are coming, focus is clear and consistent. That flow state for me is an indicator that things are all moving in the right direction.

Jennie 35:42

Yeah. As you were saying that, I just felt opening up.

Stephanie 35:47

Yeah, it's an expensive feeling.

Jennie 35:49

Yeah.

Stephanie 35:50

Yeah. So true story, I started taking pottery the year after I got out of college. And I haven't been consistent with it, unfortunately, because I'd probably be a pretty good potter by now. But I took it again in graduate school when I'd been out of school for quite a few years and it was like really stressful. So I did it as stress management. So I've kind of done it on and off over the years for over 30 years now. I was taking a class when I was living over in Cambridge, and the class was right around the corner from me. So I spent a lot of time doing studio hours, was working for myself. So I was doing a lot of pottery. And one day I went to the bathroom in the pottery studio, and there was a water cooler in there where I could fill up my water bottle. And for over two years, I've been filling my water bottle up in the studio where the clay is in the sink, right? And it's messy. And it was always just kind of this little thing in my head where I was like, it's probably not the best idea to be drinking water with clay dust all around. And then I said, Oh my gosh, in two years I've never gone to the bathroom in this place. That's why I didn't know there was a water cooler in there. Fresh water. And it was just this moment where I said, Oh wow, I am constantly in a flow state when I'm in this place. Because I come in, I never think about going to the bathroom, I never think about food, I get a little thirsty.

Jennie 37:19

Yeah.

Stephanie 37:20

But that's the flow state, is when these things don't even matter. Yeah. Right. Because the state of creating an inspiration and focus is just so heightened and expansive.

Jennie 37:35

Yeah. So where do you find yourself in those flow states today?

Stephanie 37:42

Still creating. Still creating. And creating looks different. So in my work, in my daily work, I do a lot of coaching. I do leadership development coaching. I've also gotten into career transition work. So given the large amount of layoffs in many of our communities, I took a part-time role with a group that does uh career transition work, supporting people in transition, which has been so fun and so rewarding. So sometimes I'm creating processes and procedures and helping them figure out how you compare a resume to a job description and helping them create a markdown file on AI to help assist with that, right? So that might be one way I'm creating. Another way is doing workshops. So I just came out of a training program, a certification program for the fearless organization scan, which understands psychological safety in organizations. So anytime you're running some type of workshop for the first time, there's a huge amount of creativity that goes into that. So the curriculum design piece is often where I'm creating, or even thinking through questions when getting ready to coach somebody is going back and looking at our last conversation and thinking about what are some of the questions that might guide the conversation. And we know as coaches that we can't be too planful in this way. Um, however, if somebody does have a coaching goal and we're moving them towards the goal, it helps to be thinking about what are some of the creative ways that I'm going to ask some really good questions to help somebody get there. Um so a lot of it's around designing experiences that help people reflect and tap into their potential. There we go, back to the full circle. We're full circle.

Jennie 39:40

We are full circle.

Stephanie 39:41

It is early summer New England, so I've spent a lot of time in my garden and I go out every morning in my robe, hello neighbors, with my cup of coffee, and I just take stock of my plants, what's been growing. And maybe maybe the joy in that comes from in our work. We don't always see the results of it so quickly.

Jennie 40:07

Yeah.

Stephanie 40:08

And when I grow things or I make art, I see the end product more quickly. It's in front of me, it's tangible. I can this morning I went out and cut some basil and put it on my ricotta toast, you know? So there's um more of that immediate satisfaction around having accomplished something. It's great, but the best part is when you've made an impact. Right. And you don't always see it. People don't always circle back to say, thank you, or you made me reflect, or because of our conversation, this shifted for me. We don't always get that. Um, I was uh I was up at Sabago Lake up in Maine for almost three weeks last month, um, dog sitting for a friend. And if you know anything about Sabago Lake, it's just so stunning, so peaceful. It was three weeks almost totally by myself, which is unusual for an extrovert. Well, out of the blue, two of my former students from the University of Virginia were in the vicinity. One came and she spent the night with me, and we got caught up. We have not talked since she graduated from college 20 plus years ago. And we spent the night chatting. We had a lovely dinner. The next day we got up and went to an arts and crafts fair together, and then she went on her way. Fast forward another week and a half, and another one of my former students reached out to me. And it ended up that she was maybe 20 minutes away, and I was going to a little farm stand eight miles from her house. And I was like, we should just make this happen. And these both of these women were students in my women's leadership program that I ran at the University of Virginia, which was an incredibly powerful program and experience. And it just really struck me that in the span of these three weeks, I got the opportunity to see these young women who are now, you know, well into their careers, into their relationships, have built families to reconnect with them. And I know that it's because of everything that happened 20 plus years ago, giving them an opportunity to reflect on who they were as leaders, giving them more confidence to go out and to lead. And it was just incredible. It was just incredible. So I'll take the basil, you know, I'll take the dahlias, which take many more months than basil. But the real power is when you've made an impact in another person's life that they carry with them for decades to come. Yeah. That that's the beauty of it all.

Jennie 42:57

Yeah. I love that. Like that image of gardening, right? You're you're growing. You're growing in your gardening, you're growing human beings and they're flourishing.

Stephanie 43:08

Yeah, and there's weeds. Yeah, of course. Right. I think those weeds are the suffering. I don't know, they make me suffer because I'm always pulling them out. But yeah, there's weeds, and weeds are natural. They're a part of it. They have a purpose too.

Jennie 43:21

Yeah. So if you think about where you are in this moment in your life, playing off of that, like what are the things that you're growing inside of you or in your life?

Stephanie 43:34

I'm not sure if I'm spending more time growing or spending more time weeding. Okay. Well, what are the weeds? Oh yeah, weeding. It's all the things that that we all deal with in some capacity. It's self doubt, right? Have I chosen the right path? Am I gonna make an impact? Am I gonna make any money, right? Am I gonna have enough money to retire to take care of things, right? Am I living up to my potential? Right. So I'm certainly I'm trying to yank out those weeds right now, kind of going through my own process of figuring those things out as I try to travel down this next path that's not totally clear that's in front of me.

Speaker 44:18

Yeah.

Stephanie 44:20

I'm weeding, Jennie. Weeding.

Jennie 44:22

Yeah, gosh, get the weed whacker. Yeah. And in that thicket, I had this image of you in a thicket of just kind of pulling these different weeds out and not seeing what's ahead.

Stephanie 44:36

And it's funny, when you said weed whacker, my first thought was the weed whacker's not going to help. It's that's the thing. It's not going to help because you're not getting to the root of the problem. They're just going to grow back.

Jennie 44:49

Just lopping it off at the surface.

Stephanie 44:52

Right. It's yeah. So you can't put a band-aid on it. You really have to say, what is at the root of this? And yank that out. And a lot of times, these roots and some of these weeds, they're connected underneath the soil. They're so connected. And you start pulling on one and it starts running like feet down. And those are the ones that are so much harder to get rid of. And I would equate those types of weeds to the ones that have been themes that have run through our lives over and over again. Am I enough? I think that's the big question that so many of us come back to is am I enough? Whether that comes from not getting enough praise as a child from a parent or for me growing up in a community where there are my peers who I went to high school with who still live there. They still live there. Right. Some days I feel like I've grown so far beyond the potential that other people had for me, their expectations of me. In middle school, the teachers told my mother that I would never go to college and that she should put me in a vocational high school. And in some ways they were right, because what they couldn't name at the time, which I can name now, is I'm an experiential learner. So I didn't love science, but I done dissecting that frog in middle school. Right. But when people treat you as if you don't have potential over and over and over again. So whether that was where I grew up, how I grew up, what I grew up without, that's like that's a deep-rooted weed that runs. And despite the fact that my natural personality is watch that world, here I come. I'm going to figure this out. I can do this. Those weeds still are kind of under the soil, right? And they're much harder to pull out. So it's weird to be sitting at, you know, the age that I'm at, having all the success that I feel like I've had in life, all of the experiences that nobody ever thought I would have. And to still have those weeds kind of running under the soil. And sometimes in the wintertime, we're not going to see those weeds. But in summertime, when the conditions are right, those weeds are going to pop up.

Jennie 47:16

The weeds have a long tail. They are connected. You said it beautifully a moment ago. It's not like you're going to be able to just have a snap solution and wish them away or whatever. They're inconvenient. Yeah, okay. They're inconvenient. They're there. I see them.

Stephanie 47:33

They're in the way. They're in the way. Right. Yeah. And some of it is, okay, so there are weeds that are superficial. Right. So I have little patches of clover. They're actually kind of cute. But I like a pristine garden. So that's like a preference. Okay. Right? It's an annoying weed. But then there are the weeds that choke whatever it is that you're trying to grow. So which weeds are superficial that you can tolerate and which weeds are the ones that really got to get in and dig out at the root. Yeah. And I think where you were going with that question, you know, how do you do that?

Jennie 48:10

Because it's not like, you know, here's the recipe for ridding yourself of deep weeds. And how do you relate to the weed?

Stephanie 48:20

Yeah. Oh, pausing and awareness is coming to my mind. Are you pausing long enough to be aware of what's happening? Aware of how those weeds are influencing the decisions you're making, the mindset that you have about something, um, the way that it might be limiting you. Is it? Is it limiting you? Or is it just you're aware? It's there. Maybe it's a reminder. If it's something though, that is causing you to act differently, hold you back, limit your mindset, that's when maybe you get out the trowel and you do some deep digging to get the feed out. Yeah, yeah. Right. And so when I think about some of the ways that I was raised, okay, things we didn't have a lot. You know, teachers didn't believe in me. Perhaps I didn't get the praise that I needed. I didn't have the opportunities that my neighbors had. You know, being aware of the ways that those impact me, most days are probably the clover. They're there. Don't love them, but like they're fine. We coexist without too much of an impact on a daily basis. Then there are the weeds or the moments where those weeds kind of take root more deeply, where taking a pause, doing the journaling, doing the meditating, going for a walk in nature, going for a bike ride, whatever it is that any individual has found to help them quiet the noise and be able to say, what is it that's impacting me and how is it impacting me? And what's the choice that I have in this moment about that? Yeah, I think maybe that's that's where the power in the practice is.

Jennie 50:10

Yeah. I really appreciate that slowing down the pause. You're aware that, yeah, I see this. I'm aware of this weed that feels really constricting. And what is a practice, not a solution? What's a practice that I can bring to this? And what's a choice I want to make around how I move forward? Yeah.

Stephanie 50:36

Which brings me to a moment of curiosity with you, Jennie, around this, like moments of choice. Yeah. What are your thoughts on those?

Jennie 50:47

Yeah. Yeah, that is a big question. When I think about just going through the everyday, and there's certain moments where I find myself and go ahead. I'm just kind of on automatic. I get up, I do the thing, I get out and walk. And those moments where you said it a moment ago, just um kind of catching myself in that busyness, that activity. And pausing and taking a breath and looking around. And um like in those moments where I can make a conscious choice, um, it's not always comfortable, it's not always easy, but I feel more freedom in those moments. I'm aware of having more freedom in those moments, and I can see it.

Stephanie 51:49

Wow. Um stillness, stillness is such a beautiful concept that I think is not something we naturally do culturally, as Americans. I know that you're living abroad and might be experiencing something different in America, though. It's like go, go, go, grow, get on to the next thing, you know, more money, bigger house, nicer car, kind of like just keep moving, just keep climbing. And I think about time that I've spent in other cultures, extensively in India, specifically in Buddhist communities, and stillness is just where it's at. And so I love that you find freedom in the stillness.

Jennie 52:42

Yeah.

Stephanie 52:43

And I wonder how many of us would find more freedom if we found our own stillness. And when I say stillness, I think people have this misconception about what that means. I hear people all the time, I just can't meditate. I've tried it, I can't do it. My first question is what's your definition of meditation? Because there's so many different kinds, right? There's walking meditation, there's the way that you eat your food mindfully. You know, there's so many different contemplative practices. Is your stillness sitting on a beach? I mean, I love a beach, but sitting on a beach would drive me bananas. Way too much stillness for me. But if that's where you find your stillness, like know that and make sure that you have it.

Jennie 53:30

When I think about when I retired and I retired for the job, and just what you described, that go, go, go, you've got calendar, you've got emails, podcasts, all of that. And I retired and was like, okay, that's over. And yet there was that encoded in my body that like I have to get up and do. I'm retired, but I'm getting up in the morning with the same kind of energy, the same kind of drive. And I think where I am right now is that hasn't been eliminated, but I can just notice when I'm caught in that and kind of say, okay, is this how you want to be right now? So reflecting on this conversation we've had and being in this moment you find yourself in, what are you taking away from it? Yeah. The moment in our conversation where we were talking about, you know, the freedom and stability, the freedom and creativity and stability, and we started thinking about polarities. You asked the question, you know, how could you how could you have both, right? Yeah. So how can you have stillness and flow? How can you have stability and freedom? How can you live in Vermont and Massachusetts? Yeah. So I think my takeaway from this conversation is about wherever you are in the arc, not to see things with polarities, right? To see what's happening in the middle, to see the both and and to not judge it as progress or failure, just to really sit in that space in the middle. And I think that also comes back to the Buddhist concept of equanimity, which is non-judgment. And I think we're all often so busy judging where we are in this journey or where we are on the arc and whether we can move it forward or get to that next step, is just to approach those moments with equanimity. And sometimes the kindest thing that you can do is to be kind to yourself. Yes, helping other people is a core value for me. I wonder if I might need to adjust that around kindness to self and others. Yeah. Stephanie, thank you so much for being here today. I have really appreciated our conversation.

Stephanie 56:06

I just wanted to say thank you. Thank you for having me, and thank you for this conversation. Because I think I worked some things out during it. And when I think of the name of your podcast, Traveling Companions. I mean, this is what it's about, right? Sometimes sitting in conversation and working it out through conversation and through reflection together. Yeah. So I just want to say thank you.

Jennie 56:32

Thank you, Steph. Stephanie Goodell is the founder of Ripple and Flow Leadership. If you'd like to connect with Stephanie, you can find her on LinkedIn. I'll include links to our contact information and the books she mentioned in this episode in the show notes. Thank you for being here with us in this space. If something in today's episode resonated for you, I'd love for you to pass it along to someone. That'll help others find their way here. And I'll see you on the next stretch of the journey.